Greetings Fellow Comstoks! ([info]fengi) wrote,
@ 2008-08-26 13:05:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
The problem with you people is you use generalizations.
Chuck Klosterman was on This American Life with this thesis about assumptions: "Whenever a given stereotype seems right (or wrong), it's inevitably a coincidence; the world is a prejudiced place, but it's prejudiced for the weirdest, least-meaningful reasons imaginable."

The first half of that sentence is an interesting point, but the second, and I say this as a white guy, is a very white guy thing to say. It presumes stereotypes all have the same impact, and confuses the incoherent or absurd content of a stereotype with the actual motive for expressing it. It is weird to say Jews have horns, but the reason for saying so is hardly lacking in meaning.

Klosterman was reading an edited version of his Esquire essay about a trip to Germany. He concludes by listing random observations about Germany and says "I suppose I could use these details to extrapolate various ideas about life in Germany. I suppose I could create allegorical value for many of these factoids, and some of my conclusions might prove true. But I am choosing not to do this. Because-- now--I can't help but recognize all the things Americans do that a) have no real significance, yet b) define the perception of our nature."

Klosterman supports this idea with highly selective anecdotal generalizations about how German stereotype Americans:
During a weekend in Frankfurt, I went to an exhibit at the Schirn Kunsthalle art museum called "I Like America." This title (as one might expect) was meant to be ironic; it's taken from a 1974 conceptual art piece called I Like America and America Likes Me, in which German artist Joseph Beuys flew to New York and spent three days in a room with a live coyote and fifty copies of The Wall Street Journal. (This piece was a European response to the destruction of Native American culture, which made about as much sense to me as it did to the coyote.) The bulk of "I Like America" focused on German interest in nineteenth-century American culture, specifically the depictions of Buffalo Bill, cowboys, and the artistic portrayal of Indians as noble savages. It was (kind of ) brilliant. But it was curious to read the descriptions of what these paintings and photographs were supposed to signify; almost all of them were alleged to illustrate some tragic flaw with American ideology.

And it slowly dawned on me that the creators of "I Like America" had made one critical error: While they had not necessarily misunderstood the historical relationship between Americans and cowboy iconography, they totally misinterpreted its magnitude. With the possible exception of Jon Bon Jovi, I can't think of any modern American who gives a shit about cowboys, even metaphorically. Dramatic op-ed writers are wont to criticize warhawk politicians by comparing them to John Wayne, but no one really believes that Hondo affects policy; it's just a shorthand way to describe something we already understand. But European intellectuals use cowboy culture to understand American sociology, and that's a specious relationship (even during moments when it almost makes sense). As it turns out, Germans care about cowboys way more than we do.
Beyond the greater contradiction of the essay, this paradox of a literal, reductivist reading of art used to accuse Europeans of being too literal and reductivist struck me as a shithead move.

[Digression: Dude, they're not saying Americans themselves think in terms of cowboys and indians, it's a metaphor for how American xenophobia appears to others, i.e. killing and romanticizing the other in a self serving way.]

There's a fine line between iconoclast and reactionary and it can trip up rebel writers if they can't admit this. For example, Klosterman's "regular guy" reaction to Beuys peice is posturing for a man with multiple books of cultural critique. He got the point, but didn't like it and tried to pass off patriotic resentment as disdain for effete artistic obscurity.

Klosterman recited his rhetorical contortions in a smug, slightly whiny, voice - superior about not being superior while indulging the thing he was denying. His attempt to unsettle preconceptions came off as jerkwad contrarianism. Just kidding. Or am I?

It was an off note showing the flaws of This American, but the rest of the show was far better. I'm not familiar with Klosterman, but I'm glad to know I don't have to make his work a priority.


(Post a new comment)


[info]radioactiveart
2008-08-26 06:20 pm UTC (link)
I listened to that on the way to the airport on Sunday, and had the same reaction.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]claudelemonde
2008-08-26 06:45 pm UTC (link)
that Beuys piece is in my top 10 favourite works of all time and i pretty much had a heart attack hearing it described thus

O/T, but when i was in Ireland i was astounded by the amount of First Nations iconography--they are REALLY in love with the old American West. there's a chain called Apache Pizza, and the restaurant/bar in our hotel in Dublin was full of Remington knockoffs, "Old South" antebellum crap, and Southwestern tile murals depicting woozy Utah sunsets and cattle wrangling. it was really confusing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]kadath
2008-08-26 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Ever been inside an "Irish" pub run by some guy named Tony? Same thing, basically.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]pretzelcoatl
2008-08-26 06:24 pm UTC (link)
Klosterman came across that way throughout Sex, Drugs, & Cocoa Puffs to me, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this way about his writing.

(Reply to this)


[info]harald387
2008-08-26 06:42 pm UTC (link)
He got the point, but didn't like it and tried to pass off patriotic resentment as disdain for effete artistic obscurity.

Speaking as someone who *isn't* a cultural critic, has no art history background, and isn't really interested in the art world in general, *I* sure as heck don't get the point. And it's not a question of patriotic resentment, what with me being in the wrong country.

Lump me in with the coyote.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]vee_ecks
2008-08-26 06:47 pm UTC (link)
Speaking of somebody who went to art school and has done art most of his adult life, Beuys was an occultist who tricked rich people into paying for his useless rituals. I guess that's art when you can afford the cocaine bill.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kadath
2008-08-26 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Digression: Dude, they're not saying Americans themselves think in terms of cowboys and indians, it's a metaphor for how American xenophobia appears to others, i.e. killing and romanticizing the other in a self serving way.

Also, cowboy imagery immediately conjures up The Frontier West, which has a whole hell of a lot to do with how Americans see themselves. It's visual and symbolic shorthand for a uniquely American mythos, and who doesn't realize that? Feh.

(Reply to this)


[info]vee_ecks
2008-08-26 07:00 pm UTC (link)
Beyond the greater contradiction of the essay, this paradox of a literal, reductivist reading of art used to accuse Europeans of being too literal and reductivist struck me as a shithead move.

Where's that, exactly? We're talking about a German show *about* Germany's particularly outsized - even for Europe - fixation on the American Old Timey West Story. Why on earth shouldn't Klosterman, an American, comment on the disconnects between the way Germans feel about those stories and how they relate to the US, and how Americans think about the same things? And how is that accusing anybody of "literalism," rather than something more like the exact opposite?

To be honest, I've now read your entry three times and the entire linked piece and still have no idea exactly what you're complaining about. But, you know, white guy here. Who says white guy things.




Edited at 2008-08-26 07:01 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]fj
2008-08-26 07:39 pm UTC (link)
He should have worked in the thriving sub-culture of German C&W music. They call it truckermusic.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]vee_ecks
2008-08-26 07:43 pm UTC (link)
I think I was too entranced by the hilarity of German hip-hop while I was working there to notice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I guess the state of Texas is located in Germany now.
[info]fengi
2008-08-26 08:18 pm UTC (link)
Klosterman admits the cowboy is a meatphor: "Dramatic op-ed writers are wont to criticize warhawk politicians by comparing them to John Wayne, but no one really believes that Hondo affects policy; it's just a shorthand way to describe something we already understand."

Then in the next sentence, he claims Euorpeans literally believe Hondo affects policy:"But European intellectuals use cowboy culture to understand American sociology, and that's a specious relationship". Except he's not talking about a group of sociologists, but an art exhibition, a place where everything is a metaphorical shorthand.

In short, his BS works like this:

German: You're acting like a cowboy.

Klosterman: I haven't watched a John Wayne movie in years. I don't even own a hat.

German: I said "acting like", not "you are a cowboy".

Klosterman: It's only a simile when an American uses it, you must think I worship cowboys.


Klosterman's other failures:

One: Generalizations are absurd, and to prove this he will now tell a story based on a massive dubious generalization about how Germans view Americans.

Two: Klosterman's generalization: "With the possible exception of Jon Bon Jovi, I can't think of any modern American who gives a shit about cowboys, even metaphorically."

George Bush. Millions of Bush supporters. The cult of Reagan. Thousands of people who go to Branson an Nashville. Millions of country and western albums. The US*99 radio franchise. Toby Keith. The continued refusal of the feds to pay the money they owe in royalties for drilling on Native American Land.

In short, his statement is far from accurate. Either a large amount of America doesn't count or Klosterman gets by on sweeping assertions which he hopes go unexamined.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I guess the state of Texas is located in Germany now.
[info]vee_ecks
2008-08-26 08:44 pm UTC (link)
Generalizations are absurd, and to prove this he will now tell a story based on a massive dubious generalization about how Germans view Americans.

I don't see where the piece says that. He says stereotypes are generally based on the least meaningful shit, then supports that, in part, with a travel anecdote about shit that means lots and lots to Germans in exactly the way it doesn't anymore to Americans. (Anybody who wants to argue that this is not so should be able to argue about the influence of Karl May on twentieth century German popular culture without looking like he or she cribbed from the Wikipedia article.) I dunno if I'm convinced, but it's not like I read travel essays or listen to This American Life to plumb for big truths.

George Bush. Millions of Bush supporters. The cult of Reagan. Thousands of people who go to Branson an Nashville. Millions of country and western albums. The US*99 radio franchise. Toby Keith. The continued refusal of the feds to pay the money they owe in royalties for drilling on Native American Land.

Yeah, he boiled everybody who digs The Old West in the modern US down to Jon Bon Jovi. That's a pretty clear indicator that the sentence isn't supposed to be taken as fact. In fact, I believe he may be joking. Also, there's that "I can't think of" in there. Which I'm pretty sure indicates that he's not claiming authority. Pretty explicitly.

And BTW? Those Americans? Still aren't as into the cowboy-and-indians story as Germans are.

I'm less and less inclined to think that introducing your post with "Boy, Isn't That How White Guys Think?" was supposed to be an ironic appetizer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]fengi
2008-08-26 10:24 pm UTC (link)
A contradiction is at the heart of Klosterman's essay. He concludes, "I could use these details to extrapolate various ideas about life in Germany...create allegorical value for many of these factoids...But I am choosing not to do this." because such details: "a) have no real significance, yet b) define the perception of our nature." And admits, "I was just there. And I don't know what it's like at all." Then in the rest of his essay he claims to know what it's like for "European intellectuals" andgives allegorical value to factoids about a gallery show and some German girl, extrapolating a sweeping statement.

The idea Germans care more about cowboy culture than Americans is a dubious exaggeration. When you looke at actual reporting, it's another fascinating subculture: 40,000 participants out of a nation of 82 million. This is like using furries to claim Americans have a national stuffed toy fetish.

When Klosterman says no reason to think modern Americans care about cowboys "even metaphorically," I think it's more than a joke, since he's framing it as a "critical error". This dismissal ignores the real status of the American west in fashion, music, state images, ranching as a business and politics. Most importantly, our president uses cowboy metaphors and a Texas twang. That's more than "I can't think of" - it's omitting the obvious to prop up a strawman.

I admit my "white guy" thing isn't ironic. As a white guy I recognize how easy it is to dismiss stereotypes as merely meaningless because we're usally immune their worst effect. Indulging a major contradiction without admitting it exists, however, is not just a white thing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]radiumhead
2008-08-26 07:23 pm UTC (link)
KLOSTERMAN RULES!!! USA!!! USA!!!

(Reply to this)


[info]radiumhead
2008-08-26 07:25 pm UTC (link)
Also, reading his work is a priority, IF YOU WANT TO ROCK AND ROLL

(Reply to this)


[info]mcpreacher
2008-08-26 07:29 pm UTC (link)
klosterman is a fucking awful hack who gets all of his information from pop culture and basically lives a stereotype of the upper class liberal lifestyle. i have never read a more smug yet clueless writer that wasn't pushing a conservative agenda.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]anonymissity
2008-08-27 04:34 pm UTC (link)
well, if all of his writing is ABOUT pop culture, then where should he be getting his information about it? somewhere else, perhaps? suggestions?
i'm going to write a book about broccoli and only study cauliflower in order to do it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]mcpreacher
2008-08-27 06:10 pm UTC (link)
his problem is that he extends his perceptions of pop culture to attempt his blind political and philosophical probing, and he does it in EVERYTHING HE WRITES no matter how far he has to reach the kind of bizarre conclusion that only an insulated douchebag with a faded mr. bubble t-shirt could

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mcpreacher
2008-08-27 06:12 pm UTC (link)
also to carry your broccoli analogy, the market is already fucking clogged with shows about broccoli, books about broccoli, local bands devoted to covering broccoli songs, and countless blogs discussing broccoli's hey day, so if you're planning on writing a book about broccoli, you shouldn't go studying cauliflower but i would suggest going to fuck yourself

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fengi
2008-08-27 08:46 pm UTC (link)
Hooray - Albini icon! I mean that sincerely. He went to my school.

Edited at 2008-08-27 08:46 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…