Greetings Fellow Comstoks! ([info]fengi) wrote,
@ 2008-05-11 12:47:00
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Reckless Girls Imperiled by Hypotheticals
In the print version of the New York Times Magazine, the headline for an article about injuries in girls sports says, in all caps:

EVERYONE WANTS GIRLS TO HAVE AS MANY OPPORTUNITIES IN SPORTS AS BOYS. BUT CAN WE LIVE WITH THE GREATER RATE OF INJURIES THEY SUFFER?

Short answer: Yes, when it is sensationalized sexist spin.

The article is OMG WTF BBQ TITLE IX BAD based mostly upon knee injuries for women. That sports injuries are a problem is established, that these injuries might be different from men is plausible, that there is a crisis of greater injuries for girls is, to be polite, finessed.

Here's some representative quotes (emphasis mine.:
Comprehensive statistics on total sports injuries are in short supply. The N.C.A.A. compiles the best numbers, but even these are based on just a sampling of colleges and universities. For younger athletes, the numbers are less specific and less reliable. Some studies have measured sports injuries by emergency-room visits, which usually follow traumatic events like broken bones. A.C.L. and other soft-tissue injuries often do not lead to an E.R. visit; the initial examination typically occurs at the office of a pediatrician or an orthopedic surgeon. Studies of U.S. high-school athletics indicate that, when it comes to raw numbers, boys suffer more sports injuries. But the picture is complicated by football and the fact that boys still represent a greater percentage of high-school athletes.

Girls are more likely to suffer chronic knee pain as well as shinsplints and stress fractures. Some research indicates that they are more prone to ankle sprains, as well as hip and back pain. And for all the justifiable attention paid to concussions among football players, females appear to be more prone to them in sports that the sexes play in common. A study last year by researchers at Ohio State University and Nationwide Children’s Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, reported that high-school girls who play basketball suffer concussions at three times the rate of boys, and that the rate for high-school girls who play soccer is about 1.5 times the rate for boys. According to the N.C.A.A. statistics, women who play soccer suffer concussions at nearly identical rates as male football players.
...
The Injury Surveillance reports include commentary as well as data, and in 2007 the authors stated that an A.C.L. rupture is “a rare event” and advised against making too much of the tears sustained by male and female collegiate athletes across a range of sports. But a young woman playing college soccer can easily generate 200 exposures a year between her regular season in the fall, off-season training in the spring and club play in the summer.
...
So imagine a hypothetical high-school soccer team of 20 girls, a fairly typical roster size, and multiply it by the conservative estimate of 200 exposures a season...Over the course of four years, 4 out of the 20 girls on that team will rupture an A.C.L.
Imagine a 20 girls being allowed to drive cars without male supervision for a year, multiply it by an estimate of 2 accidents per month - some of them will die twice.

This quote from a section on an actual positive idea - a program training girls how to avoid injuries - shows the fact-ish journalism of author Michael Sokolove:
The Santa Monica Orthopaedic and Sports Medicine Research Foundation published results of its trial in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. The research was nonrandomized and therefore not the highest order of scientific research. (The coaches of teams doing the exercises made a choice to participate; the control group consisted of those who declined.) Nevertheless, the results were attention-grabbing.
Attention grabbing as a substitute for "significant enough for NYT magazine."

EDIT TO ADD: It seems the key (yet understudied) issue of how women can be taught how to avoid injuries indicates girls sports lag in injury prevention, not that girls are fragile things unworthy of sport. This idea is mentioned, but buried after much alarmism.


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[info]kadath
2008-05-11 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Some research indicates that they are more prone to ankle sprains, as well as hip and back pain. And for all the justifiable attention paid to concussions among football players, females appear to be more prone to them in sports that the sexes play in common.

Okay, assuming the research isn't crap...maybe it's 'cause us ladies are more willing to admit being hurt? Y'know, not having been socialized all our lives that crying makes us untouchables within our peer group?

Anyway. Both my ankles are fucked from repeated sprains doing Taekwondo in high school...a sport, which, you will note, boys and girls do together. As a tragic statistic (*music swells*), my reaction is so the fuck what? Injury was a risk I knowingly ran to do something I loved, and was really fucking good at, thank you.

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[info]fengi
2008-05-11 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Yea, the first thing is injuries might actually be the same and it hasn't been proven otherwise.

The more interesting (yet understudied) point - women can be taught how to avoid injuries - might also indicate the problem is girls sports are behind in injury prevention, not that girls are fragile things unworthy of sport.

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[info]kdotdammit
2008-05-11 06:29 pm UTC (link)
That's typical of NYT Magazine which never fails to infuriate and outrage me. It really is one of the most offensive and ideological suspect magazines in print. Marketed sensationalism and crisis of the moment all crafted for the comfy bourgeoisie. I don't know why I bother reading it. And who the fuck buys those houses that are listed in the real estate ads? And what about the ludicrous fashion spreads? And yeah, let's make women and minorities and queers and everything "other" into the fashionable crisis of the moment. Grrrrh. I think it's about time I wrote my NYT Magazine Rant.

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[info]silk_noir
2008-05-11 08:53 pm UTC (link)
I want to read the rant!

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[info]stopword
2008-05-11 06:33 pm UTC (link)
Bah, yeah, the injury prevention thing was the first thing I thought of. Women and men are built differently and I'm right on board with the more delicate ankles thing - so figure out how to train in a way that builds muscles to support them. jeez.

What is the point of this article, anyway? I bet next week they run an article about how all the young women are fatty mcfattersons and our country is going down the toilet because of it. If only they'd get some exercise!

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[info]fengi
2008-05-12 05:05 am UTC (link)
Plus if you actually start looking at these stats, the risk isn't a hard number, the risk doesn't quite fit epidemic proportions (which the author admits in passing before speculating on how it could hypothetically be an epidemic) and, most importantly, it's a known risk with a major awareness campaign to deal with it.

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[info]faithhopetricks
2008-05-11 08:02 pm UTC (link)
Some studies have measured sports injuries by emergency-room visits

Say it with me, boiz and ghouls: when all you are going on is REPORTED INCIDENTS, your numbers are skewed.

Also, to be chauvinist about it for a moment, in my experience it is a lot harder to get a guy to go to an ER than a girl.

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[info]mcpreacher
2008-05-11 08:08 pm UTC (link)
girls shouldn't play sports

they should enslave men to endure brutal competition for no wages as entertainment for their thousand-year matriarchy

I CAN DREAM CAN'T I

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[info]kadath
2008-05-11 08:17 pm UTC (link)
If you can't stop talking about our plans in public, you don't get to be in the Men's Auxiliary anymore.

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[info]silk_noir
2008-05-11 08:52 pm UTC (link)
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
AAAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I guess I should say thank you for posting this.

(Reply to this)


[info]cataptromancer
2008-05-11 09:07 pm UTC (link)
See, this is why women shouldn't be firefighters and shoulders! It's the way of nature (and, I dare say, of God)!

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[info]cataptromancer
2008-05-11 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Oops, nice slip there. I meant to type "soldiers."

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[info]picodulce
2008-05-12 01:43 am UTC (link)
Hold up.

I read this article a few days ago and I didn't get "Title IX is bad" from it at all. The article is an excerpt from a book about the "injury epidemic" in women's sports; it's not about "women shouldn't be firefighters" or "women shouldn't play sports" or anything of the sort; it makes no statement of the viability of women's high school sports or women going against some inherent nature.

There are issues with women's sports injuries and injury treatments; I've heard for years (back when I actually played sports), that a woman athlete's recovery from a torn ACL is different/ longer than a male athlete's, and that women are more likely to do damage to the leg because of differences in musculature around the knees and ankles, generally. Is that because the preventative medicine and training is better for young men (probably not). Is it because doctors are new to the differences in female injuries (I don't know). Could the data be skewed? Certainly. But it's not some out of the blue BS designed to restrict women's sports, and please show me what in the article serves that function.

I dislike the NYT and I dislike the salacious tagline, but it's important to talk about the injuries that people get in sports. Guys might hide the smaller injuries like ankle sprains. But I don't think anyone tears and ACL and doesn't have it reported (if they want to play that sport again or walk properly), so I consider that interesting data. The concussion data might be uneven, but large numbers of concussions in soccer? That's something at least worth talking about.

In men's sports, there has been chatter for years how the specialization in sport means that certain parts of the body are always under strain - the kind of runs and swings you make in tennis are different than those in baseball, and those are different than in basketball - and there are going to be interesting spikes in extreme injuries for women with the increases of club teams/ year-round play. That's a problem for men and women. This guy's writing a book about women and injury, so it's going to focus more on them and not on a comparison between sexes or a statement that women shouldn't be playing sports.

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[info]fengi
2008-05-12 05:02 am UTC (link)
I read this article a few days ago and I didn't get "Title IX is bad" from it at all.

From the contents page of the print edition:

Soccer Wars: Title IX says all student athletes should be treated equally. The problem, it turns out, is that girls and boys diverge physically as they enter puberty.

From the article:
Janelle’s father was concerned, too, but a bit more philosophical. Title IX, the federal law enacted in 1972 mandating equal opportunity in sports, has helped to shape a couple of generations of girls who believe they are as capable and as tough as any boy. With a mix of resignation and pride, Rich Pierson said to me: “We’ve raised these girls to be headstrong and independent. That’s Janelle.”

...This casualty rate was not due to some random spike in South Florida. It is part of a national trend in the wake of Title IX and the explosion of sports participation among girls and young women. From travel teams up through some of the signature programs in women’s college sports, women are suffering injuries that take them off the field for weeks or seasons at a time, or sometimes forever.


The article is an excerpt from a book about the "injury epidemic" in women's sports

Then it's even more problematic how the author downplays comparisons between male and female injury rates. Because if they are similar in totality, it's not a gender based epidemic. Without substantial epidemiology into the sources of the higher rate, he's assuming correllation equals causation.

Or the problem may be children and sports in general, or how women are treated than their inherent weaknesses.

He inflates the actual hard evidence for his thesis with vague terms ("seems," "appears" and "may"), interpreting stats without mentioning methodology and conflacting numbers with anecdotal evidence and speculation.

He makes a case for the difference in ACL injuries, but this is still misleading: "The rate for women’s soccer is 0.25 per 1,000, or 1 in 4,000, compared with 0.10 for male soccer players." This reads like 1 in 4,000 to .10 in 4,000, but it's actually .25 to .10. The information on the risk also varies depending on the source by as much as 2.4-9.7 times greater.

1 in 4,000 doesn't quite fit the definition of epidemic, which he admits: "The Injury Surveillance reports include commentary as well as data, and in 2007 the authors stated that an A.C.L. rupture is 'a rare event' and advised against making too much of the tears sustained by male and female collegiate athletes across a range of sports."

Then he again conflates speculation with stats: "The A.C.L. injury rate for girls may be higher — perhaps much higher — than it is for college-age women".

This risk has been highly publicized and there are active programs dealing with it. So rather than an unchecked epidemic or a sign women are at undue risk, it's a known problem being dealt with.

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[info]picodulce
2008-05-12 12:16 pm UTC (link)
- Girls and boys do diverge physically. Is that not true? I didn't take the tone of the article from the anecdotal comment that the Floridian father said about his daughter. I do think the author takes an alarmist tone, but not to some "Title IX should be abolished."

I took from the article that athletes and parents should be thinking about prevention, and that they should understand that these injuries do happen, they are debilitating, and they don't just happen to overmuscled men in football, where one often hears of the high injury rate.

The article could certainly have been better written, and the word "epidemic" is questionable, but I just didn't take it to be as wildly sexist. The article describes an issue for parents to watch out for that isn't widely talked about. Not that women should get back in the kitchen as some respondents here seem to think.

I don't think the risk has been highly publicized at all, but I don't have evidence from gym teachers or traveling programs, so that is just opinion. The concussion problem and the ACLs in upper-level male sports make a lot of news (knee injuries in basketball, concussions in football, arm/ shoulder injuries in baseball), but women's sports injuries do not. The solutions are probably similar for both sexes, and injury prevention as an issue needs to be talked about at greater detail for all children who play competitive sports.

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[info]picodulce
2008-05-12 12:37 pm UTC (link)
(dor agrees with your take, though! so maybe it's just me.)

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[info]fengi
2008-05-12 03:15 pm UTC (link)
I think we're disagreeing on intent and subtext. Yes the primary context may not be intentionally against Title IX, but it echoes the whole "women are too weak for sports" via alarmism.

Without the alarmism, it would be a safety tips story for a parenting magazine rather than the NYT or a book.

The subtext of "women in peril" is different from "women having problems just like men when sports don't accomodate their physical issues".

Imagine it was some other group and problem or where identity and phenomena were being conflated - would the subtext of the presentation be a bit more obvious?

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[info]picodulce
2008-05-12 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I agree that we're disagreeing about intent and subtext; I do think that I tend to focus more on the supposed facts than the subtext, especially with the Times magazine (or Times style or... hell, the NY Times) and other news sources, even if it has to do with, say, blacks in America or New York phenomena. I expect some leading quotes and anecdotes.

So perhaps I tend to ignore subtext more than other people, creating our divergent views of the article.

The article could have and should have been better. In fact, when I read it, I thought it was a little all over the place, perhaps hastily cobbled together from the already-written material? It's certainly not as readable as Michael Lewis' excerpts from his recent books. But there are interesting facts to be contemplated, researched further (this article needs a research doctor and regressions) and/ or disputed from the article, important enough that the issues brought up shouldn't be dismissed with a big fat "sexist" label.

It, by the way, is certainly better and less head slapping than this week's Economist article on black Americans, which starts with Prof Fryer, an extreme outlier (and a shining example who has been profiled by the Times and many other news outlets), moves on to opinions as facts (jobs moved a few bus stops away), states numbers without the counter arguments or discussing the underlying premises, and conflates small "advantages" into "black Americans don't know how good they have it".

All of that doesn't mean that the article doesn't have some interesting issues to be discussed, even though it's WAY more offensive (and with so much information, much less in depth and more of a conservative topic review) than the NYT article we've been talking about.

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[info]substitute
2008-05-12 03:20 am UTC (link)
BUT IS THERE HYMENS INTAXT???????

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[info]alexparker
2008-05-12 04:03 am UTC (link)
Best response.

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[info]alexparker
2008-05-12 04:03 am UTC (link)
Oh noes! If she blows out her knee, how will she be able to stand all day in the kitchen and chase the chillins?

The thing is this. People need to stop worrying about girls being delicate flowers. If we get hurt, we get hurt. It doesn't make us broken. [busting out the old standby...] If we can handle childbirth, I think we can handle soccer.

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